Martin imparts a story of his encounter with renown Italian filmmaker Federico Fellini and the legendary actress Ava Gardner that is both humorous and touching. An interview with his son, Ramon Estevez follows where they enjoy reminiscing about the films they worked on together over the years, their talk culminating in a beautiful, shared memory of their friendship with Ava Gardner. In conclusion, Martin reads a poem he wrote about the difficulty he experienced with one of his sons as a teenager, something he feels every parent can relate to.
Martin imparts a story of his encounter with renown Italian filmmaker Federico Fellini and the legendary actress Ava Gardner that is both humorous and touching. An interview with his son, Ramon Estevez follows where they enjoy reminiscing about the films they worked on together over the years, their talk culminating in a beautiful, shared memory of their friendship with Ava Gardner. In conclusion, Martin reads a poem he wrote about the difficulty he experienced with one of his sons as a teenager, something he feels every parent can relate to.
Martin Sheen: ... Hello and welcome to the Martin Sheen Podcast with yours truly, Martin Sheen, of course, and I'm delighted to be your host for this podcast pilgrimage where the destination is the journey itself. Along the way, I plan to share stories and personal memories of some of the many people, places and events that have helped to shape my lifelong happy and continuing struggle as an artist and a man to unite the will of the spirit with the work of the flesh. I also hope to explore poetry as a powerful form of expression and communication by proxy, as it were, and how poetry is such a vital and necessary component of our spirituality and our public discourse. And from time to time, I'll invite friends, fellow actors, poets, scholars and family members to join our pilgrimage and discuss what inspires their artistic journey. And so, friends, let us begin.
Martin and The Maestro
In January 1976 I began work with a feature role on a film called “The Cassandra Crossing” at the Cina Cita Studios in Rome. The director was George Casmatos, the producer was Carlo Ponti, and the all-star cast included his wife Sophia Loren, Richard Harris, Burt Lancaster, Lee Strasberg, OJ Simpson, appearing in very his first film and the legendary Ava Gardner.
With the family together, we rented an apartment in Rome and the six of us settled in for a three-month adventure!
One day as I was out jogging in the neighborhood, I met Donald Sutherland, who was on location in Rome as well, he was filming “Casanova” at the Cina Cita with the famous Italian director Federico Fellini and when I told him that I too was working on a film there he invited me to drop by any time and meet the Maestro. I told him I'd be delighted and a few days later while I was on a break I found the sound stage where “Casanova” was being filmed and I wandered inside.
The atmosphere was very casual and relaxed, as it appeared the cast and crew we're just returning from a lunch break and as I looked around I spotted Donald up on a raised platform with his hair and makeup attendants preparing him for the next scene. He was wrapped from head to toe in a long white shroud and when I got his attention he waved “hello” and signaled for me to stay. I signaled back “I would” and I continued wandering around enjoying the friendly chatter and the normal commotion of a working film set. But a few minutes later all that changed to a more subdued
ambiance when Frederico Fellini, The Maestro himself, appeared.
He wore a sport jacket and tie and a hat that didn't seem to fit, none the less his presence was captivating, and I couldn't take my eyes off him as he mingled here and there, with this one and that, and then suddenly I realized he was staring directly at me.
I smiled nervously and turned around looking for Donald but he was still being prepared for the scene and I couldn't get his attention. When I looked back, I saw Fellini signal to an aide, and with his eyes still on me he whispered to the aide and pointed in my direction. “Ah ha.” I thought, “He recognized me and he’s sending his aide to bring me over to meet him!”
Alas, nothing could have been further from that assumption. In fact, the aide appeared in front of me with grave concern and said in a heavy Italian accent, “Ah, senor, I ama berry sorry but you knowa the Maestro donta like the visitors on the set. You must to going.”
With stunned embarrassment I struggled to explain I was there at Donald Sutherland’s request but to no avail - the aide continued on, “Senor, I’ma very sorry but, you know, the Maestro don’ta like the visitors ina the set. You must to going, please.”
Once again I looked to Donald but he was still preoccupied and completely unaware of the situation, so I simply gave up and left.
Several weeks later as I was leaving the set of “Cassandra Crossing” I was asked if my driver, Carlo and I could drop Ava
Gardner off at her hotel. It seemed her driver had gone on an errand and couldn't be reached, and Ava was... how do I put it politely? Well, she had had a ‘few’ while she waited for her driver. And was a bit…pickled. Ok, she was more than a bit pickled, she was completely pickled, and she needed some caring assistance getting home, which I was more than happy, willing and able to provide. Ava Gardner was a classic movie idol for decades and a lovely lady. She was great fun to work with as well and my whole family adored her, especially my son, Ramon.
So we picked her up from her dressing room and as the car headed toward the exit gate we passed by the sound stage where “Casanova” was being filmed. Suddenly Ava said, “Please, stop the car, I’m going to visit The Maestro!” And with that she bolted from the car, pulled open the sound stage door and disappeared inside.
I told Carlo to stay with the car and I followed her, trying to stay as close as I possibly could but it was dark inside the sound stage and the set was huge. I watched as she stumbled around calling out, “Maestro! Maestro, it’s me, Ava!” When suddenly out of nowhere Fellini appeared, calling back, “Eva! Bravo! Bravo!” And the two of them engaged in a sort of ritual dance, with Ava cooing, “Maestro” and the Fellini cooing, “Ava” until they embraced, and he led her away.
I was left wondering, “Now what?” when the aide I recognized from before appeared as if on cue, and with the same grave expression, in the same heavy Italian accent said, “Ah, senor, I’ma sorry buta you know the Maestro don’ta like the visitors ona the set. Please, you must to going.” But this time I didn't wait for him to finish, I simply left and waited in the car till Ava returned a short time later.
It's been nearly half a century since then and while I never met “The Maestro” and I never saw Donald Sutherland again unfortunately, the last time I saw Ava Gardner was in the Spring of 1986 when she attended my closing night performance of “The Normal Heart” at the Royal Court Theatre in London and my son Ramon was her date!
We're going to take a brief pause now, but please don't go away. There's a lot more to come.
Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us. And now I'm here at the mic with a man that I have known most of my life and all of his life, my son and namesake, Ramon Estevez. Welcome, mijo.
Ramon Estevez: Gracias, padre.
Martin Sheen: Since you were very young, you were drawn to the performing arts. You were a dancer, a singer, you played the piano, as well as acting and screenwriting. What are you currently pursuing? Right now?
Ramon Estevez: I write. That's been a real wonderful thing right now.
Martin Sheen: Right. You.
Ramon Estevez: You keep writing?
Martin Sheen: Yeah. You wrote?
Martin Sheen: Um, I wrote. I've been working on a TV pilot for about three years.
Martin Sheen: Yeah, tell us.
Ramon Estevez: Yeah, I like to keep it to myself for the moment because it's still a work in progress. I'm working on it right now in my head. I rewrote a whole scene on the way here.
Martin Sheen: Okay, well, let's go to. You and I did a film together which is still revered in a lot of circles. A very, very special the Dead Zone.
Ramon Estevez: Oh, my God.
Martin Sheen: And I'm often asked, who was the guy that took that incriminating photograph of you? And I identified that young man as my son.
Ramon Estevez: Sure did.
Martin Sheen: Tell us about that.
Ramon Estevez: Was it. Wasn't it Cronenberg?
Martin Sheen: Yeah. Yeah.
Martin Sheen: Who directed that?
Martin Sheen: David Cronenberg.
Ramon Estevez: David Cronenberg.
Martin Sheen: Yeah. I may have been his first. I'm not sure.
Ramon Estevez: Yeah, he was real nice, but it was just a thing he said, just keep taking pictures. And I had a real camera that had film in it. I guess they were going to use the pictures at some point and just click and click, click away in this big, huge camera, you know?
Martin Sheen: Mhm.
Ramon Estevez: And I just remember falling down at one point, like, not seeing where I was going. And that was the part they used because it was very realistic.
Martin Sheen: Yeah, yeah. So our audience is clear what was happening, uh, in the scene was, uh, an assassination camp. And you took a photograph of me in a very compromising position, holding up the baby. I held up the baby to. To avoid being shot.
Ramon Estevez: Right, right. And the world saw it.
Martin Sheen: The whole world saw it and ruined my chance in the White House. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, so that film is still, uh, viewed today as a, uh, you know, kind of a cult classic.
Ramon Estevez: Sure. I was billed when the credits rolled. Teenage Boy with Camera. Right. That was it.
Martin Sheen: Yeah. Because he didn't have an official name.
Ramon Estevez: Right.
Martin Sheen: Yeah. Yeah. All right, I want to go and talk about one of my favorite, uh, times with you and, uh, a performance that you gave in a very special film with your brother Charlie and I called Cadence, which we filmed in the summer of 1989 up in a little community called Kamloops in British Columbia, Canada. And you played, uh, one of the guards at this army post, this isolated post in West Germany. And you were one of the guards of the, uh, brig. And the film involved your brother Charlie being the only white man in this brig. I played the racist sergeant, uh, and you played a sycophant that really adored me and would do just about anything I said. And I want to tell you and our audience if anybody has not seen this, if they really want to see the depth of your talent, you were quite brilliant in that show. And I often tell people when I brag about you in this film, that even classmates of yours, uh, from high school saw the film and did not know it was you.
Ramon Estevez: I don't know if I was really actually going for anything like that. It just kind of happened. I think the direction that was given to me gave me a way of being my own person, being my own character, being how I, um, approached that. And a lot of it was just screaming my head off, I think. Just stuff that really made. But you also made the scenes work.
Martin Sheen: Yeah, but you specifically went through a bit of a training with these, uh, real soldiers so that you understood what the job was like.
Ramon Estevez: Oh, sure. No, we all did. We all did. It was like a little bit of a basic training. It was what you would do. Everything but working a gun. Right. Working any kind of weapon. It was at learning how to march and learning how to hold yourself. And so you looked physically correct for what you were doing.
Martin Sheen: So, um, we were filming up in this very remote community, and we had Laurence Fishburne. And here we were, you and I and Charlie, in a scene together. And I said to Charlie, who's gonna believe that we're not, you know, father and son right in the same scene? And Charlie said, who the hell cares? Yeah, they're not gonna be worried about that. They're following the scene.
Ramon Estevez: When you took that part, you were gonna play another part.
Martin Sheen: Yes, I was.
Ramon Estevez: And that other part got filled by Murray Abraham came in, who came to work.
Martin Sheen: Yeah.
Ramon Estevez: And I remember, you know, talking to him a few times, and all the other actors on the set, all the, uh, background people and artists, we're all calling him that Salieri guy.
Martin Sheen: He had just won the Academy Award.
Ramon Estevez: Yeah. Because he played Salieri. And, um. But I remember having a real, you know, good, um, couple conversations with him, you know, so that was nice.
Martin Sheen: I was so fond of him. I just adored him. And he came in at a very critical moment because I had to step up into, uh, the role of the villain, and that left the role of the Judge Advocate open, and we had to move very quickly. And he came instantly. Uh.
Ramon Estevez: Uh, yeah.
Martin Sheen: I want to talk about one thing that I. You had learned to drive what they call in the military, a deuce and a half. That's a two and a half ton truck, and it's like a huge pickup truck.
Ramon Estevez: Well, I did, like, I learned how to drive it. I didn't know at all. I just like. Okay.
Martin Sheen: Okay, good. And you had to drive this with all of the prisoners, including Laurence Fishburne.
Ramon Estevez: And for a scene. Yeah, for a scene.
Martin Sheen: Down a rough road, and the thing damn near tipped over.
Ramon Estevez: Well, I had to know. It was when I was backing up to do the scene again, they said, okay, reset. And then I had to back up and do the scene again. Oh, this will be really funny. You know, maybe, like, I'll bump around a little bit, and that'll be fun. You know, there'll be a joke. And I didn't realize how, you know, how close we came to backing off a cliff.
Martin Sheen: We were watching from 50 yards. We were filming it, and I saw the truck tilt like a sinking boat. Yeah. On the starboard side. And I thought, oh, my God, there goes the whole cast.
Ramon Estevez: Well, when they started banging. When they started banging on the cabin, I was, oh, that must. I must not have been very funny.
Martin Sheen: That brings us to the legendary Ava Gardner.
Ramon Estevez: I got to know her, and we would always talk and tell jokes and. And, um, she was real down to earth, you Know, and I think Ava must have thought, oh, good, you know, he's. He's just a kid. But that she saw that I was mature enough to carry on a conversation.
Martin Sheen: How old were you then?
Ramon Estevez: I was about 12.
Martin Sheen: Yeah. She was very fond of you. And, um, uh, she, you know, she didn't have any, uh, children, and so that I think she took a great interest. And that you took a great interest in her. I don't think you really knew who she was film wise or this, uh, this movie star.
Ramon Estevez: I had seen Earthquake, you know.
Martin Sheen: All right. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But I was always so, uh, really proud of you, that you were so kind to her and that she responded. And nine years later, you were 22, 23. And that last night of the play in London, of the Normal Heart.
Ramon Estevez: Yeah.
Martin Sheen: Uh, she was your date, so she was. Yeah, she was.
Ramon Estevez: We sat in like right in the middle of the theater, and it was nice, you know, she kind of settled into it. And, um, I kind of told her what the play was about to see. Okay. Are you okay with the subject matter? You know, what's going on here? She goes, oh, yeah, I get it, I get it.
Martin Sheen: What was the audience response? They must have known who it was. I heard a lot of people were watching Ava watch the play a little.
Ramon Estevez: Bit, but there was one moment where, you know, whoever. Some of the other people in the theater that, uh, were in the lobby saw me with her. Like, obviously they thought, oh, that, you know, that guy's with her and were polite enough to ask me first. No, not who she was, but if they could ask her for the, ah, autograph. Oh, I didn't go right up to her, but asked me first. I said, I think that'd be okay. Yeah, I think she'd be fine with that.
Martin Sheen: And was she?
Ramon Estevez: And she was fine with it, of course. Yeah. And then, um, I remember seeing her off to the taxi at the end of the performance and making sure she got the taxi.
Martin Sheen: We went out to a pub. We had a, um, we had a.
Ramon Estevez: Little time together afterward. Met the director and we. But I remember just seeing her in the taxi that night. She was wearing a necklace. It was like three pearls deep around her neck. Just this beautiful black and beautiful black, you know, And I kind of knew. I felt like that's the last time I'm going to see her.
Martin Sheen: Really? Yeah.
Ramon Estevez: Uh, that was the last time I saw her.
Martin Sheen: Yeah. M. I've thoroughly enjoyed this time with you and I. I thank you for coming all the way out here.
Ramon Estevez: That's fine.
Martin Sheen: To Share some thoughts and feelings and we'll sign off with that. I love you, kiddo. Thanks for joining us.
This next selection is a deeply personal poem I wrote that I'm certain every parent can relate to. It's entitled simply
A father to a Son.
I thought I knew from whence you came
And assumed to know the why,
And so I drew the chart you’d take
And pressed you do or die.
I held your hand and then your head
As much as you’d permit
Perused my dreams through endless schemes
And prayed you would submit.
I turned me here and sought you there
The longing to fulfill
A half-pretended motive to the
Glory of my skill.
As I maintained the search without
You withdrew within
Your music turned away my shout
My promised threats wore thin.
And now perhaps you think you know
From whence I came and why
Reflect on all you’ve seen and heard
Am I that kind of guy?
There is a certain danger
In the pain of deep regret
Dismissed, unwelcome strangers
Abandoned to beget.
And so I’ll stand outside your heart
And wish upon a star
For you are me and I am you
When looked at from a far.
Consider this., the sunset and the little boy. A father took his little boy to the seashore to observe the sunset, which that particular evening was spectacular. As the sun disappeared on the horizon, the little boy tugged at his father's hand and said, oh, daddy, do it again. Do it again.
I invite you to delve further into the works of the poets I shared with you, and I hope you seek out writers and poets whose work speaks to your hearts and minds with the power to inspire your life. If you've enjoyed what you've heard here, please subscribe to my podcast, the Martin Sheen Podcast, with your host, yours truly, Martin Sheen. Of course, wherever you find your podcasts. Yeah, I have to say that you can find a complete list of the poets and titles of their poems that I've chosen at our website, themartensheenpodcast.com I want to thank the people who make this podcast possible, our producer and research assistant, Renee Esteban, who assures me that the Internet is a real thing and a safe place if not used off label. And our sound engineer and editor, Bruce Greenspan, the man behind these rich and seamless recordings, and to his dog Gracie, our studio mascot, who snores in perfect pantameter.
And so, friends, we part with the prayer from Tagore.
We are called to lift up this nation and all its people to that place where the heart is without fear and the head is held high, where knowledge is free, where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls, where words come out from the depths of truth and tireless strivings stretches its arms towards perfection, where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary desert sands of dead habit, where the mind is led forward by thee into ever widening thought and action, into that heaven of, um, freedom. Dear Father, let our country awake. Amen.
The Martin Sheen Podcast all rights reserved. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, distributed, or transmitted in any form without prior written consent of the author and te productions. A Father to a Son and Martin and the Maestro by Ramon Gerard Estevez, AKA Martin Sheen, is included here by granted copyright permission.